20 Replies Latest reply on Dec 3, 2010 5:01 PM by Karlo.Zatylny

    Groups Error when nesting Node Groups

    bailessm

      How should node groups be set up?  Nested in the same order that they would be dependent on each other or flat? When I try to set up my node groups nested which is the way the dependencies I'm using them for are logically aligned I get the following error 2 layers deep?

      "Groups Error

      Item ID must be in following format: EntityName-EntityID Parameter name: itemId"

      Has anyone else ran into this issue yet or am I just doing it wrong?

        • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
          Karlo.Zatylny

          Hi,

          Please call support so we can get diagnostics.  This error is something we'd like to look at.

          If you are setting up dependencies then nesting groups may not be what you're looking for.  Dependencies are hierarchical and will work with multiple levels.  For example, if I have RouterA at my highest level and then below it I have SwitchA, SwitchB and SwitchC.  Then below each of the switches, I have groups of servers A, B, and C.  Then I would create a Group for each of the server sets "ServersA", "ServersB", and ServersC".  Each of those groups would be a child in a dependency to their corresponding switch.  Then I would have another group for my switches which would be the child to my RouterA.  Such that my dependencies would look like:

          Parent             Child

          RouterA           Switches Group

          SwitchA           Servers Group A

          SwitchB           Servers Group B

          ...

          This heirarchy will work such that when RouterA goes down or unreachable, then the child switches would become unreachable, and then the corresponding servers would becomes unreachable.  There is no need to nest the groups of the servers in with the switches. 

          If you did want a group to roll up the status for this entire group then I would add another group that is not in the dependencies that is RouterA, Switches Group, and all the servers groups.

          Let me know if you have any additional questions.  Or if I am way off on describing what you are trying to do :)

            • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
              bailessm

              It appears that this is just a bug since it some times takes a few clicks to re create, The groups i set up is done with dependecies in mind. 

              Branch
                  Router
                  Router Dependency Group
                     Switch
                     Switch Dependency Group

              So in essence I have it set up similar to how you described.  I don't have to nest them this way but it makes it much easier to browse through the groups I have already set up and make changes where i need to especially if it is a branch that has multiple routers and switches. The error always happens when i try to expand the Router Dependency Group, when it is set Root level Groups view mode.  Sometimes if i change to flat view and then back it will work and unfold correctly.  I'll place a call to support so that i can get it on the books.  I'll also update this thread with the ticket number when i recieve it.

                • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                  bailessm

                  The case number is 197795 that i just opened on the website.

                  • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                    Karlo.Zatylny

                    Hi,

                    Thanks for calling support.  If I am understanding your setup correctly then you will not have your dependencies work as expected.  If you create a group "Switch Dependency Group" that is a child to Dependency Parent "Switch" and you have "Switch Dependency Group" a nested group inside of "Router Dependency Group" that is a child to Dependency Parent Router then your "Switch Dependency Group" will have 2 parents.  One bring the Switch the other being the Router.

                    This will not work as you might expect.  If the Switch goes down but the Router stays up, then the devices in the "Switch Dependency Group" will look and see that they have one parent Down and one parent Up.  Since all parents must be down for an item to be Unreachable, you will get all the Down alerts from your devices in the "Switch Dependency Group".  Do not nest the Switch Dependency Group in the Router Dependency Group unless you really want that behavior (which I don't think you do).

                    Thanks

                      • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                        bailessm

                        that was a typo on my part, those are actually node groups.  If you look at the dependencies that use those groups, I have one dependency where the router is the Parent and another dependency where the Switch in the parent.  I am just trying to nest these Groups to make a visual of how the dependencies work and to clean up the groups page.

                          • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                            Karlo.Zatylny

                            Cool.

                            As long as the Switch group is not nested inside the router group then you're golden.

                            Thanks

                              • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                bailessm

                                So a node cannot be a member of more than one dependency group?  In the scenario we're talking about, the devices are dependent on the switch or switches for connectivity and the switch is dependent on the router.  If the switch goes down and the router stays up then all the devices after(or nested under) the switch will be unreachable, not down which is also the case if the router goes down. 

                                  If my dependencies are set up with the router being the parent of the Router Dep Group and the Switch being the parent of the Switch Dep group (regardless of how the node groups are set up which are just a necessary extra step since it will not let you choose multiple devices when you set up a dependency), why would it matter if either or both are down, they are two different dependencies that happen to use different groups that are nested. If this is not the correct way to set this up, which not only will help stop the flood of email but also point less experienced technicians to the device that is actually down and not unreachable, how should it be set up?  If you can only have one parent per node then this function has lost a lot of usefulness.

                                Also, this still doesn't solve the problem of why an error gets thrown when I add two node group layers if the software allows me to add more than one layer.

                                  • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                    Karlo.Zatylny

                                    First off, yes, we need to investigate your error.  The majority of this conversation is outside that scope.  I am just taking this opportunity to discuss Dependencies with someone who is using them.

                                     

                                    A node can be a member of multiple dependencies and a member of multiple groups.  If I have NodeA in GroupA and GroupA is a child of SwitchA, and GroupA is a member of GroupB with GroupB beings a child of RouterB, then NodeA has two parents because NodeA is a member of both GroupA and GroupB.  GroupA has a parent of SwitchA and GroupB has a parent of RouterB.  In order for a Node to be unreachable, ALL its parents have to be Down or Unreachable.  Thus, my NodeA requires both SwtichA andRouterB to be Down or Unreachable.

                                    This is probably not what I want.  I want SwitchA to be a child of RouterB and NodeA to be a child of SwitchA.  Thus if SwitchA becomes Down then NodeA is unreachable.  If RouterB becomes Down, the SwitchA becomes unreachable, and consequently NodeA becomes unreachable.

                                    Why was it implemented this way? We wanted to handle nested groups in dependencies.  Thus I can have many levels of nested groups as a child or parent in a dependency.  We also wanted to be able to handle multiple parents of one node via multiple dependencies.  Thus I can have a node that is connected to 2 switches be a part of two separate dependency definitions.  The result being all the parents have to be down for the node to be unreachable.  We wanted this to handle redundant routes within a network where a node can be reached via multiple paths.

                                    The way to set it up is how I described above where the nodes that are connected to the switch are only in a group as a child of that switch.  If a node is in a group and that group is a child of a dependency, then the node will have that parent.

                                    Am I making things worse? :)

                                      • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                        bailessm

                                        No, you're not making it worse, after whiteboarding out the last response, i think we're on the same page.

                                        A node can be a member of multiple dependencies and a member of multiple groups.  If I have NodeA in GroupA and GroupA is a child of SwitchA, and GroupA is a member of GroupB with GroupB beings a child of RouterB, then NodeA has two parents because NodeA is a member of both GroupA and GroupB.  GroupA has a parent of SwitchA and GroupB has a parent of RouterB.  In order for a Node to be unreachable, ALL its parents have to be Down or Unreachable.  Thus, my NodeA requires both SwtichA andRouterB to be Down or Unreachable.

                                        In the last sentence you said that both parents have to be down or unreachable.  In my setup SwitchA is a member of GroupB as well as GroupA, so if RouterB went down SwitchA would then be made unreachable. Using this setup it should be a very powerful troubleshooting tool for those network engineers who aren't very good at following the packet, If I can just get this pesky error taken care of.  Do you know if the system set up to have a limit on the number of nested layers?

                                        If only I could get a remote network monitor that would put another test point at a different branch across the MPLS network it would be network troubleshooting on cruise control.

                                          • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                            Karlo.Zatylny

                                            If a node is in two or more depedencies either directly or because it is a member of groups that are in dependencies, then all its parents must be down for it to be unreachable.

                                            If your SwitchA is in GroupA and GroupA is a child to ParentA AND

                                            SwitchA is in GroupB and GroupB is a child to ParentB THEN

                                            ParentA and ParentB would BOTH have to be Down or Unreachable for SwitchA to be Unreachable. 

                                            This is good if you really have two routes to SwitchA such that two other devices (or interfaces) would have to be Down in order for packets to not make it to your switch.

                                            You can get another remote monitor by getting another Orion NPM Poller.  This poller could be setup on another part of your network and give you information from there :)

                                              • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                bailessm

                                                This is an example of what I have set up on one of my simplier branches, some times pictures are easier than words.

                                                NDRouter is the parent of NordanR_dep Group, and ndsw1 is the parent of NordanS_dep in the dependencies, so if NDRouter goes Down then everything in the NordanR_dep group including ndsw1 should become unreachable, if ndsw1 goes down but NDRouter is up then only devices in the NordanS_dep group should be unreachable.  Correct? 

                                                  • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                    bailessm

                                                    Follow up with the dependencies visual

                                                      • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                        Karlo.Zatylny

                                                        Thanks for the pictures.

                                                        This will not work as you describe.  ND_DVR, nddc, and ND-TSW-1 are members of two dependencies by virtue of the fact that these three nodes are members of both NordanS_dep group and NordanR_dep group.  Thus they have two parents ndsw1 and NDRouter.  So if ndsw1 goes Down but NDRouter is still Up then ND_DVR, nddc, and ND-TSW-1 will see that they have one parent still up and will mark themselves as Down instead of Unreachable and trigger alerts - not what you want.  You want NDRouter as a grandparent of ND_DVR, nddc, and ND-TSW-1 so that if NDRouter OR ndsw1 go Down then these three nodes will become Unreachable.

                                                        How to fix? 

                                                        1. Move the NordanS_dep group to be a nested group under the Nordan group only, to be a sibling of NordanR_dep group.Then you have rollup status via the Norden group.

                                                        2. Remove NordanS_dep group from the NordanR_dep group and create NordenR group that is not in a dependency but has members  NordanS_dep groups and ndsw1.

                                                        This may not seem as nice to have separate groups for dependencies and status rollup, so if you don't like this, then let us know so we can get feedback on how it works.  If this just seems like a minor detail on how to set things up right, then let us know that, too, so that we get feedback either way.

                                                        Thanks

                                                          • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                            bailessm

                                                            So according to the 1. fix, since ndsw1 is a member or NordanR_dep group and it would become unreachable making anything that is dependent on it unreachable as well if the router which is the parent of NordanR_dep goes down.

                                                            What does adding the new NordanR group do?

                                                            This is what i have now and i think should be all for the dependencies to work(Dependencies are the same as above).

                                                             

                                                            Also I recieved a correspondence on the open case about the groups error, they found the bug and it will be fixed in RC3.

                                                              • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                                Karlo.Zatylny

                                                                Good to hear that bug will be fixed for you.  I actually heard that over the cube walls :)

                                                                Your screenshot looks good.  My suggestion for adding the NordanR group is if you wanted a group whose status is a rollup of everything below the NDRouter (ndsw1 and NordanS_dep).  Thus NordanR would have rollup status as you would like.  Purely a visual thing for status, not really functional at all - from the dependencies standpoint. 

                                                                This would give you a group that you're using for dependencies and a group that you're using for status.

                                                                  • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                                    bailessm

                                                                    Thank you for your help explaining the logical setup of the dependencies.  I think I've figured out how it's supposed to work.  As long as you remember everything is an AND statement you should be good as far as i can tell. 

                                                                    The setup is a little complicated but I'm not sure right now how it could be made any simpler.  If i come up with anything, while setting up all of my dependencies I'll update this thread.  Maybe in the future we can get an advanced tool that lets you set parents>grandparents and so on with ANd/OR settings in between to handle multiple routes.

                                                                    Thank You again for your help!

                                                                • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                                  freemen

                                                                  Karlo,

                                                                  This is an interesting thread, but a little hard to follow without seeing the diagrams you have been referring to. If I may post a diagram of my own and ask a simple question....

                                                                  In the diagram, there is redundant routing between Core Switch A and B so that if wither goes down, Devices X and Y are still reachable.

                                                                  So, would I create a Group containing both Device X and Y and make it a child of both Switch A and B? Would that then provide reachability for Orion unless BOTH switches go down?

                                                                  Have I understood what you have been saying here

                                                                    • Re: Groups Error when nesting Node Groups
                                                                      Karlo.Zatylny

                                                                      Hi,

                                                                      Thanks for the picture. There are two ways that this could be done.  One of the ways is the way you mention:

                                                                      Parent         Child

                                                                      Switch A      Group of Device X and Y
                                                                      Switch B      Group of Device X and Y

                                                                      Why does this work?

                                                                      When device X or Y is detected as Down the software will check for all Parents of these devices.  If ALL parents are down then will the down device get the unreachable status.  Thus, if either Switch A or Switch B is not Down or Unreachable themselves then the devices will not change their status to unreachable and would be marked as down and fire an alert.

                                                                       

                                                                      The other way is to create a group for the parents with a roll up status of Best or Mixed.  Like so:

                                                                      Parent              Child

                                                                      Switch Group    Device Group

                                                                      Why does this work?

                                                                      When X or Y goes into the down status from the polling, it will check the status of its parent.  For a Best Status roll up group, the status of the group will take the status of the best member.  So if A is Up and B is Down the the Group status is Up.  Only when both A and B are Down will the group status be down and cause your devices to become unreachable.  A Mixed status Group will put the Group into the Warning status if only one of the switches is Down.  A Group in Warning will not be considered Down for the dependency calculation so a Down X or Y will fire an alert.

                                                                      Please let me know if I can describe this better.