35 Replies Latest reply on Oct 8, 2009 12:52 PM by denny.lecompte

    Node Management in System Manager

    William Vitalec

      Please allow Node managment in the System Manager.  I manage a very large environment and being able to use the web console only is very limiting.  I understand that this was done at the request of some customers; however, for those of us who use SolarWinds in an enterprise environment, limitations are not acceptable.  Please accept and push this enhancement as soon as possible.

        • Re: Node Management in System Manager
          jeff.stewart

          I'm curious what you're having trouble with in the web management?

            • Re: Node Management in System Manager
              William Vitalec

              It is too slow.  I have 5 polling engines and using the web page can be like watching the grass grow.  When I was able to manage nodes in the System Manager I could do the things I needed to with ease and speed.  Using the web page really slows things down and when I try to obtain metrics from the web page, due to some of the issues with the earlier service packs I cause strain on my database.  I really think it would be beneficial to have the choice of the System Manager and the web console.  The slowness is killing me.

                • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                  bshopp

                  Have you gone to 9.5 SP4 and seen the changes we made?  Is the performance still rough?  Not sure if you looked at the other thread I linked to, but this boils down to if we keep this in the web and system manager we have to maintain and update/fix two different code bases to do the same thing essentially.  If we are busy doing this, this ultimately means less new features/enhancements etc. we can deliver to you.

                    • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                      William Vitalec

                      Actually I just found out about SP4 today; however, this was the same thing I was told about SP3 and I still had issues.  I found a bunch of things that were causing the polling issues and fixed everything I could.  I understand about the issues with the code, but it seems that limiting users is not the way to go.  I read the notes on SP4 and they say a lot of what SP3 stated.  I have to go through a process to get this applied since out entire network is monitored by SolarWinds.  I can't simply install it considering it is in a production environment.  I will install it as soon as I am able to.  Installing SP4 won't correct all the issues though, the web console and views are still slower than using the System Manager so SP4 is not really a fix for all of my needs.

                      • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                        William Vitalec

                        Important question:  I asked SW support this and have not received any answer...what were the release dates of the service packs and hot fixes for V9.5 ????

                          • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                            bshopp

                            Quickest method I can think of would be to look here  The day we release them I post them to the forum here, so the dates should line up

                              • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                William Vitalec

                                Why so many service packs?  I have not installed SP4 yet; however, I am working on it.  I have a process that has to be followed to do this.  These service packs really interrupt our monitoring and to be quite honest have not fixed the issues I am seeing.  Besides the web console being incredibly slow I see that I have numerous instances of my polling cycles falling behind and at given time.  This could be from 5% to 95% behind.  When I had V9.1 installed I rarely saw this kind of performance degradation.  Why have things changed so much in V9.5?  What is SP4 going to fix in relations to my issues when I was told that SP2 and SP3 were going to fix them?  I saw no improvement, in fact in some ways I feel I was pushed backwards.

                                  • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                    bshopp

                                    Specifically what issues are you seeing?  Have you opened support tickets on any of them?  

                                    Regarding the Service Packs, with 9.5 we made some upgrades and changes to the product that caused issues in the field, n particular, we had a number of issues with Network Atlas, and much of what we've been doing in these service packs is fixing those problems.

                                      • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                        William Vitalec

                                        Opened support tickets?  That is all I have been doing.  I have spent countless hours opening support tickets and receiving different answers constantly.  In some cases I can't even get a good, solid answer to what the problem is.  The issue i am seeing is there is a percentage of devices that are falling behind the polling cycles on all my engines.  The main SLX poller is contantly behind since the V9.5 upgrade by anywhere from 5% to 10% behind.  Since we use SolarWinds as our main network monitoring system this is unacceptable.  The main difference between 9.1 and 9.5 that I have noticed is the job engine file.  This is a SQL server compact edition database file.  This thing constantly becomes large at a very fast rate.  Could it be that SQL server compact is not a good enterprise size solution and causing issues with the polling and the main database?  I would really like to find a solution not, "lets try this to see if it fixes it" or "install another service pack." 

                                          • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                            bshopp

                                            OK, this data helps thank you for that and for being patient while we work on getting you fixed up.  I am looking up your history now and will get back with you.

                                              • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                William Vitalec

                                                Any new updates if I can get the System Manager back instead of only having the web console?  Since this was available in V9.1, would it really be that hard to have both management point available?

                                                  • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                    bshopp

                                                    It's not a matter of being that hard, it more a matter of they are two different code bases and having to maintain them both.  If we have to maintain them both, then we spend less time on other new enhancements, features and bugs.  That is why I was probing with some of my questions in previous posts.  If there are usability issues or performance issues with the web, let us know so we can address and make that experience better.  Based on initial feedback we made the paging change in SP4 to web node management, which we have gotten really good feedback on.  However, we do recognize that we will still need to do more work here.

                                                      • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                        William Vitalec

                                                        Here lies one of the problems.  Since SolarWinds is monitoring all of our production equipment, each time I have to install a service pack requires disruption of that monitoring.  Since you recognize more work is still needed, this tells me another service pack is on the way which once again, hinders my monitoring capabilities.  The postitive feedback you have received, what type of customers has that come from; large or small?  If the customer is large, how large are we talking about?

                                                        If there haven't been any issues with the System Manager in the past 2 releases (V9.1 and V9.5) what support would you really have to supply to the code?  The majority of your attention would still be on the web console and enhancements.  I suppose in this case there is not much use in going back and forth with this other than to say this is a very dissappointing release considering a major administration feature was taken away. 

                                                          • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                            denny.lecompte

                                                            Because of the nature of the code, just making them both work was causing instability in both both UIs.  It's one of those things where it seems like it should be easy, but it isn't.

                                                            We've gotten good feedback on the web node management changes in SP4 from customers with many thousands of nodes and tens of thousands of interfaces.

                                                              • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                William Vitalec

                                                                I just want to clarify, the system manager is NOT being brough back?  I have been going through the forumns and it appears that not everyone is happy with the slower web console.  Orion perfmon client - why the change?

                                                                I still have a case open about v9.5 and polling falling behind.  I have been supplying information to the support engineer over and over and still have no resolution.  The slow web console just makes a difficult situation worse. 

                                                                How is V10 going to work and is it going to be web based as well? 

                                                                  • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                    denny.lecompte

                                                                    No.  System Manager is not being brought back.  Are you using SP4? 

                                                                      • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                        ssaluga

                                                                        Please also count my vote for being able to manage nodes via the System Manager.  I find the web admin cloogy, slow and not very productive when it comes to managing all of our equipment.

                                                                          • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                            William Vitalec

                                                                            Absolutely.  When I want to update anything in larger quantities the web console just does not work.  The web console is great for small applications but for an enterprise solution the web console is simply not going to cut it.

                                                                              • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                Karlo.Zatylny

                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                Can you give me a specific use case that I can investigate on updating large quantities?  For example, selecting 2000 nodes and updating a custom property, or selecting 10000 interfaces and selecting "unpluggable".

                                                                                Given some use cases, we can begin to make more directed improvements.

                                                                                Thanks

                                                                                  • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                    denny.lecompte

                                                                                    Again, are you using SP4, because we made a bi change there.

                                                                                    • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                      denny.lecompte

                                                                                      Again, are you using SP4, because we made a major change in SP4 to improve performance.  What are your issues once you're on SP4?

                                                                                        • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                          William Vitalec

                                                                                          Installed SP4 today and updating custom properties cannot be done easily on multiple devices.  Also, there are numerous steps to just add a single node. 

                                                                                          I would not try to manage large numbers of anything from the web console because it won't handle it. 

                                                                                          I updated to SP4 and it did not correct any of my issues like a slow web console or polling behind.

                                                                                            • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                              denny.lecompte

                                                                                              Installed SP4 today and updating custom properties cannot be done easily on multiple devices. 

                                                                                              SP4 didn't change anything about custom properties, but you have always been able to select multiple nodes and then change one or more custom properties across all those nodes in one action.  Is that not working for you?

                                                                                              I updated to SP4 and it did not correct any of my issues like a slow web console or polling behind.

                                                                                              The paging in SP4 was added specifically to handle large numbers of nodes.  What is your paging set to?  Other customers reported a major increase in performance.  We very much want to improve performance further, but the more specific the feedback, the more effectively we can do that.

                                                                                                • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                                  William Vitalec

                                                                                                  I can, but it is slow, like any web console would be when changing multiple elements.


                                                                                                  I will just deal with it as is and figure out my polling behind problem.  It really seems that this latest version is not an improvement over V9.1.

                                                                                                    • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                                      MNPS_G

                                                                                                      I have been feeling like somewhere along the way in Ver 9.5 that my polling engine has been behind, but haven't really seen anybody else mentioning it until this thread.  I am up to SP4, and somewhere along the way nodes were constantly going up/down in Orion, but if I polled them myself they were fine.  Stopping Netflow collection has stopped the up/down, so I assumed it was DB related problems, but the following is making me wonder. 

                                                                                                      The other interesting item is that the Polls Per Second Tuning recommended settings change somewhere along the way for 'Maximum Node and Interface Status Polls'.  It had been around 130 per second, and when I went in there to try and tweak things to help stop the up/down events, it is now recommending 88.  That is with no hardware changes to the machine and the only software changes have been the SPs for Orion. 

                                                                                                      I'll open a ticket for this, but just wanted to chime in as well. 

                                                                                                        • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                                          William Vitalec

                                                                                                          I definately think there is something in the V9.5 database configuration/indexing that is causing this.  I have also noticed, today, that I have numerous interfaces that are polling unknown.  The problem with the web console is, if you try to rediscover them you get the same status; however, if you do this in the System Manager you have the ability to add them as up and remove the 2 unknowns.  This web console is really a huge limitation.  I strongly request the System Manager be brought back at least until all these bugs with the web console can be worked out and tested completely.  I can't afford to be a test subject for all these bugs in the web console in an extremely large production environment.

                                                                                                          I check my polls per second every day and they are always what is recommended so I know the polling up and down as you state is not from that.  I had the polling almost perfect with V9.1.  I never saw the polling go over 5% behind for any polling engine.  Now I am seeing it jump up to as much as 30% behind throughout the day consistently.  The issue I have with this is NO changes were made to any devices or my network.  The ONLY change has been V9.5 and the numerous service packs.  I really don't like sounding like a broken record, but I have to considering the environment I am monitoring and the cost to the business if I can't properly do that.

                                                                                                            • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                                              denny.lecompte


                                                                                                              I definately think there is something in the V9.5 database configuration/indexing that is causing this.  I have also noticed, today, that I have numerous interfaces that are polling unknown.  The problem with the web console is, if you try to rediscover them you get the same status; however, if you do this in the System Manager you have the ability to add them as up and remove the 2 unknowns.  This web console is really a huge limitation.  I strongly request the System Manager be brought back at least until all these bugs with the web console can be worked out and tested completely.  I can't afford to be a test subject for all these bugs in the web console in an extremely large production environment.

                                                                                                              I check my polls per second every day and they are always what is recommended so I know the polling up and down as you state is not from that.  I had the polling almost perfect with V9.1.  I never saw the polling go over 5% behind for any polling engine.  Now I am seeing it jump up to as much as 30% behind throughout the day consistently.  The issue I have with this is NO changes were made to any devices or my network.  The ONLY change has been V9.5 and the numerous service packs.  I really don't like sounding like a broken record, but I have to considering the environment I am monitoring and the cost to the business if I can't properly do that.

                                                                                                               



                                                                                                              Just for the benefit of other folks reading this thread, one of our Devs is on a web meeting with wvitalec.  There are at least some circumstances that seem specific to his installation  that are causing his performance issues.

                                                                                                                • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                                                  William Vitalec

                                                                                                                  Why did the Disable Session Timeout stop working in SP4?  It is such a pain to have to constantly log in when automatically logged out.  This has even happened in the middle of adding a node and interfaces.  When is the web console going to be able to manage a large amount of elements?  I can only edit properties on 2 or 3 interfaces at a time.  If I try to edit 10 or more for example, the console never refreshes.  Bring back System Manager.  This web console does not handle enterprise size environments.

                                                                                                                    • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                                                      denny.lecompte

                                                                                                                      Why did the Disable Session Timeout stop working in SP4? 

                                                                                                                      We haven't heard this from anyone else.  As for web console performance, you seem to be experiencing problems that other users are not having.  We have other customers with enterprise environments who are using the web console quite successfully, especially with 9.5 SP4.  Your request regarding System Manager has been heard and recorded.

                                                                  • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                    bshopp

                                                                    I would like to discuss this some more.  So why is the web console limiting in your opinion?  We made some changes in 9.5 SP4 which should help make the web node management better and will continue to work on it.  

                                                                    We have have multiple conversations on this topic here on thwack, see Re: Orion perfmon client - why the change? for one of those threads.  

                                                                    • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                      JosephRLee

                                                                      I have mixed feelings on the new web based node management. I do find it is very quick for making duplicate changes to multiple nodes/interfaces. What I do not like about the web node management is adding nodes/interfaces. They tend to stay in a permanent state of "unknown" for me when done through the web.

                                                                      I use the System Manager for adding nodes/interface and the Web Console for manipulating them.

                                                                        • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                          bshopp

                                                                          Huh, interesting feedback on the adding nodes via the web, that is for sure not normal.  Is it just for a period of time and then they are no longer underknown or always?  We are continuing to look at ways to improve the web node management, so please don't be shy in recommendations.

                                                                            • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                              JosephRLee

                                                                              I tested it a few times and had nodes with interfaces in an unknown status for a week. Our rediscovery is set to 2 days, so the system would have discovered it on its own at least twice in that time. I have tried many things to try to get the interfaces discovered when testing, nothing worked other then adding the interfaces in System Manager.

                                                                                • Re: Node Management in System Manager
                                                                                  denny.lecompte

                                                                                  I tested it a few times and had nodes with interfaces in an unknown status for a week. Our rediscovery is set to 2 days, so the system would have discovered it on its own at least twice in that time. I have tried many things to try to get the interfaces discovered when testing, nothing worked other then adding the interfaces in System Manager.

                                                                                  That's a bug.  Next time this happens, please open a support ticket so we can get diagnostics so we can find out what's going on.