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$20,000 for 100 Node SAM License?

I was working on setting up my Solarwinds lab environment to do some testing/experimenting and to have a lab environment first to apply updates and see if anything breaks.  I have access to some of the NFR software because I am a THWACK MVP but it did not include any SAM licensing so I figured I would reach out to sales and get a quote for a 100 node SAM license for the lab.  I got the quote back and my jaw dropped - $20,000 for 100 node SAM license for the lab but if I purchase now I can get 50% off by the end of the year...   at this point I am evaluating  the lab environment to see if I should set it up at all.  I need the SAM component but not for 20K initial then another 6K a year for maintenance.  Get your stuff together Solarwinds...

64 Replies
Level 16

serena

Even we are facing lot heat due to the changes on SAM licensing... Below are some points from my end:

Use case 1: When we compare the element based with node based, the launch price itself has so much gap. Ex: ALX can give you free limit of 12k elements but its current equivalent is SAM300 if m not wrong so this allows only 300 devices to be monitored!

If I take a count of 1000 device with 10 monitor probes then I can still monitor 10k devices. So see the gap here 300 devices: 10k devices

Use case 2:  SAM Node based licensing price doesn’t work for small to medium environments. When the same cost is compared with other competitors there is a difference of 40% in the overall cost. Even if we have NPM in place and we try to monitor server/virtualization from it, we don’t get the entire benefits. Reason being hardware monitoring is available only via SAM, use of templates or monitoring of services cannot be used etc.

Use case 3: The benefits of SAM node based of allowing Free APEs ; free APE is only for SAM specific nodes so again this doesn’t help even for the multi module deployments. Correct me if m wrong.. and does SAM Node based also provide HA free?

pratikmehta003  wrote:

Use case 3: The benefits of SAM node based of allowing Free APEs ; free APE is only for SAM specific nodes so again this doesn’t help even for the multi module deployments. Correct me if m wrong.. and does SAM Node based also provide HA free?

SAM Node based licensing does not include Orion High Availability for free. This is no different than SAM Component based licensing. Currently, Orion High Availability is only included with NAM. For all other products, Orion High Availability is a seperate purchase.

MVP
MVP

I like the F5 'dev' model.   Keep in mind they are an expensive kit.

$150 for a 'dev' vm licence.   You can in theory turn on all features, but resource limited (CPU or memory I forget which) so you cannot turn everything on at once.  Throughput is also limited.

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Depending on what you need you might look at IPMonitor.  It does some really good monitoring of devices and applications.  You don't get into the weeds of the applications but if you need to know basic stuff that is where I would look. 

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justin.alcorta  wrote:

Depending on what you need you might look at IPMonitor.  It does some really good monitoring of devices and applications.  You don't get into the weeds of the applications but if you need to know basic stuff that is where I would look. 

IP monitor is a great product, and you're absolutely right there are definitely customers who need more basic monitoring that utilize IP monitoring for a budget friendly option.

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SAM should be a base feature of Orion and not a license.

If it helps you feel less bad martian monster​ , I added up our SQL and Oracle instances and databases and looked up the list price for covering them all with SAM and DPA.  List price was over $1M.

Someone from SW was quick to point out that quantity discounts were available, and that it was unlikely we'd be asked to pay $1M for SAM and DPA.

I had to grin.  Knowing our SA's and DBA's and our organization's budget, it's unlikely they'd be interested in covering all our instances/databases for more than $2K total.  Now understand I'M comPLETELY on board for having DPA and SAM.  But silo's and responsibilities and tools are quite separate between my team and the others. 

Slightly off-topc, but relevant:

I'd love to be part of a conversation about the future of licensing for the Orion platform.

We MVP's have been around the block with customers of all sizes, with pockets both deep and shallow. It would only make sense for SWI to include us in any licensing working group, as we're the un-badged boots on the ground, who can deliver unfiltered feedback, direct from the front lines. We also have access to decision makers at the aforementioned customers, therefore able to put some of the theoretical changes to them, unofficially, thereby giving SWI the potential impact of change, before it's implemented.

The fallout we're seeing from the move to node-based licensing for SAM just reinforces our value to this conversation. The potential to mitigate any potential negative impact alone, by having us in the loop and prepared to field questions from our customers stemming from any change, would be invaluable.

We're a combination of product evangelist, social media influences, and PR people, all in one, so use us

- Jez Marsh

silverbacksays  wrote:

Slightly off-topc, but relevant:

I'd love to be part of a conversation about the future of licensing for the Orion platform.

We MVP's have been around the block with customers of all sizes, with pockets both deep and shallow. It would only make sense for SWI to include us in any licensing working group, as we're the un-badged boots on the ground, who can deliver unfiltered feedback, direct from the front lines. We also have access to decision makers at the aforementioned customers, therefore able to put some of the theoretical changes to them, unofficially, thereby giving SWI the potential impact of change, before it's implemented.

The fallout we're seeing from the move to node-based licensing for SAM just reinforces our value to this conversation. The potential to mitigate any potential negative impact alone, by having us in the loop and prepared to field questions from our customers stemming from any change, would be invaluable.

We're a combination of product evangelist, social media influences, and PR people, all in one, so use us

Jez,

As a THWACK MVP you already have direct access to feedback channels that allow you this influence today. A round table around this subject was conducted early on. Your value is of immense importance and from the beginning has been of incredible value to our internal discussions. Please do not believe that your voice is not heard, because it most certainly is.

I would caution those on this thread who believe that there is only 'fallout from the  move to node-based licensing' as the only correct narrative. That is an incorrect assumption, as the happy customers who have successfully joined the SolarWinds family using node based licensing or migrated to node based licensing, are rather busy enjoying the benefits, and have used other feedback mechanisms that are available through our sales and support teams to communicate their feedback. Even if it at times does not seem visible in this specific thread, does not mean that everyone hates node based licensing.

Hey serena

I know I can reach out and have a chat with the relevant people about my views, but sometimes boucing a group of ideas around a brain trust helps, as it did when we had our first MVP calls on this I only meant to highlight that having another such discussion may help once more, as we MVPeeps have had the chance to gather even more feedback now, is all. We're all still buddies!

Ultimately, the licensing model isn't all bad, at all. It's just different, and marks a new potential direction which could impact on the Fancy Dans who do a lot with less


SAM is still one of the best value for money Orion modules out there, in terms of functionality. I'll be selling it, installing it, and supporting it, regardless of whether it's on the ALx or SAMx licenses

- Jez Marsh
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silverbacksays  wrote:

Hey serena 

I know I can reach out and have a chat with the relevant people about my views, but sometimes boucing a group of ideas around a brain trust helps, as it did when we had our first MVP calls on this I only meant to highlight that having another such discussion may help once more, as we MVPeeps have had the chance to gather even more feedback now, is all. We're all still buddies!

Ultimately, the licensing model isn't all bad, at all. It's just different, and marks a new potential direction which could impact on the Fancy Dans who do a lot with less


SAM is still one of the best value for money Orion modules out there, in terms of functionality. I'll be selling it, installing it, and supporting it, regardless of whether it's on the ALx or SAMx licenses

I'm glad you liked the format of the first MVP roundtable. When reviewing the outcome of that meeting, there were some limitations with that format. For instance, I wasn't able to easily include some of our remote folks (like shuth​ and frak​) and that was a big gap because each of the MVPs are classified as MVPs for a reason. Every individual's feedback is something I wanted to bring equal opportunity to collect. This go around we have changed the format around a bit with DanielleH helping us out with her usual level of expertise. You should have been notified on the additional feedback channel provided for this, so I look forward to seeing more of your excellent feedback there.

Thank you for continuing to be an ambassador of SAM, and I totally agree that the licensing model is *diffferent.*  I'm totally stealing your verbiage 'Fancy Dans' by the way in my internal discussions.  

Have a great holiday Jez!

#buddies4ever

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I haven't see anything about an additional feedback channel.  I was a bit offline due to illness recently though.

With enough notice I am fine to get up early or late for conferences.  I used to have a weekly call with a mastermind group that was 5am.  anything up to 1am I can stay up late for, or after 5am I can get up early for no probs (not sure hos shuth​ feels about times though) I just need enough notice.

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Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.  I cannot like that statement enough silverbacksays

https://thwack.solarwinds.com/people/martian%20monster  wrote:

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.  I cannot like that statement enough silverbacksays

Dave, you as well have direct access and influence already.

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Yes there was a discussion requested by the MVPs and SW when we heard about the licencing change, and that did happen  (I had to miss it due to scheduling).  I think it fair to say we didn't feel like our concerns were taken on-board. 

I don't have the experience of other MVPs with clients in SW space, as I work at an end user not dealer.  Personally I am relieved that we have most our licences already - I can't confidently say I would get approval under thew new regime ('but scom is free' is a horrible phrase but one I did have to deal with).  We have Inventory turned on for very device - a once day poll creates little load on our pollers and gives us great benefit in managing our equipment.  In the past when we were sailing close to the wind for our (as then non SLX) SAM licence - and working through templates and selectively turning off less important components was a valid way of staying monitored.  Running out of licences and hitting the 'random nodes unmonitored' in a more constrained node based licence would leave us no choice but to leave devices off entirely while the we pushed through red tape for purchasing (which in government can take a LONG time).

Product Manager
Product Manager

frak  wrote:

Yes there was a discussion requested by the MVPs and SW when we heard about the licencing change, and that did happen  (I had to miss it due to scheduling).  I think it fair to say we didn't feel like our concerns were taken on-board. 

I don't have the experience of other MVPs with clients in SW space, as I work at an end user not dealer.  Personally I am relieved that we have most our licences already - I can't confidently say I would get approval under thew new regime ('but scom is free' is a horrible phrase but one I did have to deal with).  We have Inventory turned on for very device - a once day poll creates little load on our pollers and gives us great benefit in managing our equipment.  In the past when we were sailing close to the wind for our (as then non SLX) SAM licence - and working through templates and selectively turning off less important components was a valid way of staying monitored.  Running out of licences and hitting the 'random nodes unmonitored' in a more constrained node based licence would leave us no choice but to leave devices off entirely while the we pushed through red tape for purchasing (which in government can take a LONG time).

Matt,

I'm sorry that you felt like your concerns weren't taken into account. While that may feel that way because there are no immediate external changes, please know that licensing changes for our product line are treated with top priority and are things that cannot be adjusted overnight without careful thought. There's a mountain of review and data analysis that occurs on our side and sadly this just takes time.

Please keep using the THWACK MVP feedback channels provided, because while there aren't going to be immediate changes, we have certainly brought all attention to bear on those channels and what the MVPs are communicating to us.

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Level 12

I can only agree. I have been working with orion since 2003 and been a partner and reseller for almost that long.

The new node-based licenses for SAM just don't make sense. Too expensive.

Free polling engines, great. But if you have other modules like NPM, then you must pay for the APE's anyway. That way paying for them twice.

Component base licenses might be harder for new customers to count and estimate but it's much more fare.

Seashore  wrote:

I can only agree. I have been working with orion since 2003 and been a partner and reseller for almost that long.

The new node-based licenses for SAM just don't make sense. Too expensive.

Free polling engines, great. But if you have other modules like NPM, then you must pay for the APE's anyway. That way paying for them twice.

Component base licenses might be harder for new customers to count and estimate but it's much more fare.

'you must pay for APEs anyway'

The usage of APEs for network device monitoring differs per environment so I would argue that you can't actually make that blanket statement. There are many customers who have come forward with scenarios that show that their application and systems monitoring outstrip the number of network devices, so for them, the NPM APEs are negated as a cost by moving to SAM node based licensing.

There's not a 'one size fits all' story here. There are some customers for whom component based licenses is a perfect fit and is very fair for their monitoring needs. That's great, we are happy to see that, and we encourage those customers to hang on to their component licenses. But conversely there are quite a few customers who have migrated from component based licenses, to go to node because their monitoring needs fit that model quite well. It's just a matter of taking a hard look at how your environment is set up, taking a step back and evaluating the pros and cons.

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I have been saying for years that SAM licensing is a mess.  This is a big step in the wrong direction.  

For years I have said that MS SCOM is free with System Center licensees.  It is like they heard the customer and said....nope we are going to charge you even more money for what others give away.


Paul

This is what turns me off Log Analyzer for Orion.

- Tagging was part of legacy NPM trap viewer but under the new LA "feature" it has been removed from NPM and you now need to buy Log Analyzer

- If you go over the license count for LA, you don't just lose all the additional features that LA provides but you also lose all the basic features such as even receiving and storing the syslog/trap message. The system will discard the messages automatically if it is an unlicensed source. This makes the pricing like SAM - very expensive if you have a lot of devices that require little monitoring. If you have a network of hundreds of networks devices that might only send a few syslog/trap messages when there are problems, LA is an expensive module for what was once free.

Now seeing the same with SAM, the new licensing works well for a low number of servers that require a lot of component monitoring but I'm not sure the numbers work out in the opposite scenario.